Dr Rob Brown is an extremely qualified scientist and radiologist who is with The Environmental Health Trust, an organization founded by Devra Davis that I've always trusted for the best information about the impacts of man-made EMFs on our health. He has personally reviewed over 400,000 patients imaging and has been studying the impacts of EMF for years. He is also the author of several books, including
UnPlug: A Radiologist Explores the Damage Caused by Electropollution and How You Can Prevent It
I hope you enjoy this conversation and come away with a new and clearer understanding of what EMF can do to our biology. It boils down to Oxidative Stress, which is something we all want to minimize.
Hope you enjoy the video. You can also read the transcript right here:
August Brice (01:31)
Rob, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm just absolutely thrilled you're here. And welcome to the Thriving with Technology Podcast.
Rob Brown (01:40)
Thank you so much, August. I'm I'm thrilled to be here too. Great to talk with you.
August Brice (01:44)
Now we're gonna talk about your book, we're gonna talk about what you do, but at the very beginning, the first time I saw who you were and you were working with the Environmental Health Trust as a physician, a practicing radiologist, I thought, I wanna ask him what he would say to all of the trolls ask me or comment or tell me I'm absolutely crazy, there's nothing wrong with wireless radiation, I need an education,
August Brice (02:11)
I might as well go stand out in the sun if I'm afraid of wireless energy. It does absolutely nothing to our bodies. I'd like to hear you weigh in on
Rob Brown (02:22)
I used to believe too. about twelve years ago I I went to a medical conference where I learned otherwise. And ever since then I've been studying this field. Most people out there in the scientific world, they they believe the standard doctrine if it's non-ionizing radiation, it doesn't cause physical damage to an atom. So how can it therefore have a f have an effect? And when I heard
Rob Brown (02:50)
in this conference it really didn't make any sense to me because you think about photosynthesis, you think about the ability for our eyes to detect light, our skin makes vitamin D. Plants can make photosynthesis with red light, lower frequency than the than white light or blue light, and yet all of these frequencies create biological effects in different organisms. So how could it be
Rob Brown (03:15)
non-ized radiation doesn't. It it just doesn't make sense. but what they believe is the only effect is is heat, the generation of heat. And we know microwave radiation causes heat because that's how our microwave ovens work. But it's also been clearly documented in thousands and thousands of studies at this point it causes something called oxidative stress in cells.
Rob Brown (03:40)
So the cells have to be exposed. So, you know, we're dealing with different exposure rates depending on tissue depth and the frequency of the radiation, the intensity of it. It's very complicated physics. But basically, the higher the frequency, so as you go from say extremely low frequencies from power lines and and dirty electricity, and then you work your way up the electromagnetic spectrum to infrared.
Rob Brown (04:05)
As you increase the frequency, you decrease the depth of penetration correspondingly. And what means is for example, the center of your body may be impacted by these extremely low frequencies, whereas maybe only a couple of millimeters of of of skin might be impacted by, say, something in the terahertz range. And
Rob Brown (04:29)
And it there's so much variability because the intensities vary, and also these frequencies are being modulated, meaning they're being manipulated to carry information. And you know, we don't really understand what happens to modulated radio frequency when it hits our body. I will tell you sound, like if you go to an orchestra and you hear a composition of of instruments playing music, the sound you're
Rob Brown (04:58)
That's hitting your ear is just a composite of all those different frequencies, but your ear has the ability to discriminate all of those sounds. It demodulates the signal that's coming into it. The same thing may be happening with electromagnetic fields are being used to transmit information. And if is the case, then the even though let's say a carrier wave that's transmitting a 5G frequency might be at a very high range in these.
Rob Brown (05:25)
these physicists believe it's only going to penetrate into a a couple of millimeters into the body if it's modulated with lower frequencies, those may be going deeper. So there there's so many things we don't really understand, but I but the argument it doesn't do anything is hogwash. And these people are just ignorant and they haven't kept up with the science, which is, I mean, you know, that's it's understandable. You go to school, you get your degree, you think you know everything, and you go into industry and you work.
Rob Brown (05:53)
and and you don't keep up, especially if there if there's information out there that's gonna make your industry seem like it's doing it's on the wrong path. So I you know, I I ran into the same thing early on with somebody who worked at at a big company and he looked at me and said, there's too bad they haven't come up with the one study to to prove there's a non a a non-heating effect. And I thought, my goodness, you know.
August Brice (06:20)
Everyone does want the silver
August Brice (06:22)
bullet though. They want it they and and you say oxidative stress and some people say, Well, so many different things cause oxidative stress. What as
Rob Brown (06:29)
And that's true.
August Brice (06:30)
a as a as a physician, what do you say to How important is it? How w how big of a problem is it?
Rob Brown (06:35)
Well, is true.
Rob Brown (06:36)
That is true. there are a lot of different things cause cause oxidative stress. It is n is it a not is it a excuse me, it is a non specific finding or or reaction, but that's fine. I mean, they're d that's very, very significant. Oxidative stress is a gateway to all kinds of problems potentially in the cell. So even though it sounds like, it's you know, two words oxidative stress, big deal.
Rob Brown (07:02)
When you have oxidative stress, it means you have molecules in your cells are looking for electrons. They're unstable. So you have they're called reactive oxygen species. And they're looking for electrons. And if you don't have enough donor electrons in your cell, which are typically provided by glutathione, the these these reactive oxygen species, they start looking for electrons somewhere else.
Rob Brown (07:27)
And so if they take them from the cell membrane, then the cell membrane can become damaged. If they take them from the DNA, the DNA can become damaged. If they take them from proteins, the proteins can become denatured and stop functioning properly. So there's it's and we're talking about on a cellular level, we're not talking about an a whole organ, but potentially over time and if an if sufficient number of cells are impacted in this way, you could end up with a diseased organ and even cancer.
Rob Brown (07:58)
So there's all kinds of stuff you know, there's all kinds of stuff can occur from oxidative stress we need to be aware of and and and we can't dismiss it. When I that's what was the piece when I first learned it caused oxidative stress got me thinking, my goodness, this is terrible.
August Brice (08:18)
And so this would help explain why we have so many studies are talking about diverse biological effects from infertility to lack of melatonin production to cancer to Parkinson's to Alzheimer's to autism. So this might explain it the way you put how
August Brice (08:39)
Oxidative stress can affect so many different organ systems.
Rob Brown (08:45)
Well, it can affect it it's not even an organ system, it's every cell. So any cell in every cell can be impacted by oxidative stress. The thing that's unique about radiation is it's not it doesn't respect tissue boundaries. So for example, if you take some sort of toxin or you in you put a toxin on your skin or you ingest it or you inhale it, toxin is going to impact the cells it comes in contact with. And perhaps if it's
Rob Brown (09:13)
absorbed by the bloodstream, it'll be delivered to certain organs. And if there's a a way for the toxin to get out of the bloodstream and into the organ, then it can affect organ. But otherwise that's what the the the effect is limited to. But radiation is different. So radiation will the the greatest exposure is at the skin surface. And as you work your way deeper you're getting less of an exposure, but it's impacting every cell type in path.
Rob Brown (09:41)
If you have a whole body exposure from say a cell phone tower across the street, your whole body is being impacted. If you're putting a cell phone in your pocket, which I don't believe anybody should ever do, then you have a localized intense impact on the cells in your hip and your and right near your pelvis. Or of course you have your your your reproductive organs and your rectum and there's
Rob Brown (10:08)
There's a lot of research out there suggesting the increase in colon cancer could be a result of of of people carrying cell phones in their pocket, and GYM problems, male infertility. There's there's just so much out there.
Rob Brown (10:25)
The problem is it doesn't happen in everybody. It doesn't even happen in the same person every time they're exposed. And so that's another unique thing about radiation as opposed to say a a a biochemical toxin where you can have a certain dose and you can expect a certain result. With radiation, there are two types of reactions. One is the is called the deterministic reaction, and is a d a definable cause and effect. So
Rob Brown (10:53)
I expose myself to a certain type of radiation, I'm going to experience heating. You know, r you put the cell phone against your against your your face, you're gonna feel the warmth of the cell phone. That is a deterministic effect. It's reproducible, it's measurable, and that's where our exposure limits are based on. It our exposure limits
August Brice (11:14)
SAR
Rob Brown (11:15)
and for the FCC and ICNERP and all these regulatory agencies, they're they're they're trying to keep us from being cooked.
Rob Brown (11:23)
That's basic what they're trying to do. And so they've limited our exposure to a certain amount so our tissues don't get cooked like we've been put in a microwave oven. However, there's another type of effect from radiation called the stochastic effect. And we learned this from dropping bombs in Japan in j in World War II. We found a certain number of people lived away from the blast site were exp developed cancers.
Rob Brown (11:51)
From the radiation. And depending on how far away they were from the blast site, they had a different percentage of people came down with cancer. And the rest of the world was the control population. And it was really then we learned, and it was undeniable, radiation causes cancer. Now that's of course ionizing radiation, but the physics are similar in terms of stochastic and deterministic. So what's you know, ha and what I'm gonna say in terms of non-ionizing radiation is.
Rob Brown (12:21)
the the development of oxidative stress and of course all of the stuff happens following is a stochastic effect. It d it there's so many variables. For example, your state of hydration, how much fat you have in your body, because fat can can increase the depth the radiation has to travel to get to sensitive organs. That's why children are more sensitive than adults, because they're they've got smaller, thinner bodies.
Rob Brown (12:49)
th there are so there's so many variables. How much glutathione do you have in your cells? What's the state of your immune system? how, you know, how how healthy are you in general? Do you have any other toxins on board? Because some of these toxins can be synchronistically and augment the impact of electromagnetic fields. I even read a study in which women who have a navel piercing
Rob Brown (13:14)
are increasing the exposure to their baby that's developing utero. So there's so many variables
August Brice (13:19)
Wait, okay, wait, why?
Rob Brown (13:22)
because it does something it does something to to the radiation. It it somehow focuses it or I'm not sure. I don't know.
August Brice (13:30)
The actual piercing or wearing a metallic earring? d do we know? Wow.
Rob Brown (13:34)
No, it I think it's the piercing of on the navel it's
Rob Brown (13:38)
it we're it's overlying the uterus and somehow
August Brice (13:41)
Wow.
Rob Brown (13:42)
it's it's creating some type of if impact. Now this is a study. It doesn't mean you know, it's was one study showed this, but it's interesting and it begs the question there's so much we don't understand about this technology, but in my opinion, we should not be throwing it around willy-nilly.
Rob Brown (14:00)
it's another form of pollution and that's why you know we call it electropollution. People are like, what does mean, electropollution? Yeah, we're we're being exposed to this stuff from all different all different sources at all times and our bodies don't know what to do with
August Brice (14:16)
There are three things now from answer was fabulous I want to talk about. One is what you said about the ambient energy from the cell phone tower across the way versus the energy directly coming from the phone in your pocket. Can both of those exposures affect our entire biological system?
Rob Brown (14:41)
I would say yes. and I'm I'm not sure if you're familiar with the research I did showing the cell phone can cause rouleau formation. and that's
August Brice (14:49)
Yes, I yes.
Rob Brown (14:50)
was a really interesting study. And although I've only published the case report at this point, I do have other data I'm going to publish shortly. It's y if you put a cell phone against somebody's knee, and it doesn't have to be the knee, it can be the hip, it can be any body part, even probably, you know, up to your ear.
Rob Brown (15:11)
It can affect the blood cells are circulating through area. And so what happened is I had an I had a subject scanned her leg with an ultrasound machine, showed a normal appearance to the blood, and then exposed her knee for five minutes to a cell phone was on while the antennas were on, but it wasn't actively transmitting or sending information. After those five minutes, I re-imaged her knee and
Rob Brown (15:39)
Her blood had changed in characteristic, and it was what's normally the normal state is called anachoic, meaning there are no echoes in it because blood is the blood cells are too small to reflect sound in an ultrasound machine. But after the cell phone exposure, the blood had echoes in it, a lot of echoes. It looked like a swirling, a swirling fog in in a in a sense. And was because the blood cells had aggregated into chains called rouleau formation. And
Rob Brown (16:08)
Magda Havis and Beverly Rubick had described had described this with dark field microscopy. And but technique had been criticized because it was an it was an in vitro technique, meaning they had to take the blood out of the body to put it on a slide. And so researchers, other researchers said, Well, it's not really valid. There could be so many other reasons why this was happening to the blood.
Rob Brown (16:34)
This study I did with the ultrasound was in vivo, meaning it was within the body. So so in answer to your question, just putting a cell phone against your skin can impact the circulating blood, which then of course travels throughout your whole body.
Rob Brown (16:50)
it's not just the red blood cells are being impacted, of course the white blood cells are also being impacted, and lots of studies have shown electromagnetic fields and radio frequency radiation can impact your white blood cells. Well, that's your immune system. So we're we're talking about systemic effects from local exposure.
August Brice (17:11)
Okay, and then the second question about great answer you gave us was you said some people will have no effect at all and some from time to time by the same exposure. What's going on with
Rob Brown (17:23)
Right.
Rob Brown (17:25)
There's a lot of variables. And I I'll use the same subject as as an illustration. So we stu we studied her four or five, six times. but on one occasion she did not go into Roulot. And I was confused because we had documented Rouleau after three separate occasions. And I'm like, was strange. How come you I wonder why you didn't go in?
Rob Brown (17:50)
She said, Well, I took an Advil the night before. Do you think might have had something to do with it? And well, this is not a clot. It's not we're not forming a blood clot with Rouleau, but perhaps the administration of this anti-inflammatory might have impacted her blood chemistry in a way it didn't go into Rouleau. I don't know. More research to figure out. On another occasion.
August Brice (18:12)
Because you're not gonna reccommend
August Brice (18:14)
everyone just take an Advil and go stand in front of the cell tower. Right?
Rob Brown (18:16)
No, I mean I would not recommend I wouldn't recommend
Rob Brown (18:20)
no. But I'm just saying there's a lot there's a lot of variables. when you're talking about energy, it's really this is a this is a new realm for medicine. I I mean I I'm not a new paradigm. People just call it a paradigm shift because healthcare is all about anatomy and biochemistry and enzymes and molecules and drugs and
Rob Brown (18:45)
pharmacology and that's what doctors are taught. We're not taught about energy, the manipulation of energy, affecting energy. That's kind of a alternative and comp complementary and alternative medicine practice. and even there, we don't really understand all that's going on. I mean, we have a lot to learn in terms of the energy currents in our body and how they're affected and and what they actually do to to our cells and
Rob Brown (19:13)
And how they transmit out into the environment. It's it's it it's really kind of the secret to life in a sense, I I believe.
August Brice (19:21)
And shouldn't we have studied this before we invented something could affect energy all the time, in a very real way?
Rob Brown (19:30)
Yes.
Rob Brown (19:31)
Yes. But at the same point, it could be this brings us to precipice where we now can study it or realize it's real because there's been a lot of hesitation by the medical community to accept anything that's not their stag standard dogma, it's you know, chemistry or anatomy. It's if you're if you're going in if you're going into this realm of energy, you're getting into a realm that's not
Rob Brown (20:00)
It's not it's not taught, it's not understood, it's not accepted. And and medicine creeps along slowly, slowly, slowly. I'll I'll tell you a quick story if you want to hear about how
August Brice (20:13)
Yes.
Rob Brown (20:13)
I was first introduced to this. When I w when I finished my training and I took my board exam, I thought I knew everything because I was a radiologist, you know, and all like all doctors, you think you know everything we get out of training because you've studied so hard.
Rob Brown (20:30)
And anyway I took I took a hike down Mount Rainier with my cousin and on the way down I was preparing for a trip out to Africa. I was gonna teach at this Kilimanjaro Christian Medical Center for a couple of months. I was gonna teach them
Rob Brown (20:44)
radiology after my training. It wa
August Brice (20:47)
Very cool. Very cool.
Rob Brown (20:49)
it was a it was really cool. And during trip I was gonna go hike Mount Kilimanjaro, which was very, very strenuous trek.
Rob Brown (20:57)
Anyway, in preparation, I took this hike down Mount Rainier, and about halfway down I stepped on a rock wrong. It wasn't all paved like it is now. I stepped on a rock
August Brice (21:08)
Yeah.
Rob Brown (21:09)
wrong and I felt the squish in my knee and I thought, my goodness. And we I I hobbled back to this campsite where we were staying, and I went to an orthopedic surgeon when I got home. He gave me anti-inflammatories. They
Rob Brown (21:26)
took the pain away, but as soon as the course of anti inflammatories was over, the pain came back. And I was working with
August Brice (21:31)
INESCUS or
August Brice (21:32)
ACL, MCL?
Rob Brown (21:35)
I hadn't it it was I didn't have an MRI at the time, but he was thinking it was probably a miniscalter. So but I didn't have the MRI. But I was working with another radiologist and he said, you know, my wife ha sells this product. would you be interested in checking it out? It's they're magnets. And I thought, magnets? Like that's kinda bizarre. Like I had no framework to even where to put in my mind, but I didn't want to be rude and I thought, okay, I'll
Rob Brown (22:03)
I'll check it out, sure. So she came into the office and she put these magnets on my knee. And the n the pain like it seemed it dissipated. I I drove home, I put my n my my foot on the clutch and I didn't feel twinge of pain I had been feeling for, you know, about a month and a half. I thought this is this is unbelievable. So in the morning I woke up, I didn't have the pain. I took the magnets off, I took a shower and the pain came back. So I realized I wasn't healed.
Rob Brown (22:32)
But the magnets were doing something to modif mollify the pain. anyway, to make our long story short again, I I wore those magnets for months. I wore them to Africa, I wore them up and down Mount Kilimanjaro, I went gorilla trekking, no pain, never ended up with arthritis, never had surgery. That was the end of it. So it really
August Brice (22:54)
So what were they doing? What were the magnets doing?
Rob Brown (22:57)
I still don't know. But I guess but but I guess the the point of the story.
Rob Brown (23:02)
Is the following year I did a fellowship in San Diego with the guru of my subspecialty musculoscalar radiology. And I told him about this incredible healing, which I thought was just miraculous. And he said he didn't, you know, he had no doubt it was true. He said, But you can't research this in the beginning of your career because you'll just be you'll be looked at as you know, as a quack just from day one.
Rob Brown (23:28)
thinking you can do research on something that's so far out there. No, no, no. You have to establish yourself in the in the field first as a conventional person who's not going to push the envelope too far. And unfortunately that's the that's the whole field. He it wasn't limited to him. But that's the point. this is this this talking about energy and the impact of energy on the body systems is so far out there.
Rob Brown (23:57)
most physicians know nothing about it and don't want to know about it.
August Brice (24:01)
Interesting. And as a person who realized she had EHS in the nineties, which means I have electro hypersensitivity, meaning I can feel the energy, I said immediately this energy from this phone we can't see or smell or touch is interfering with the energy of my body. That was the only way I could describe it.
Rob Brown (24:23)
That's a great description.
August Brice (24:25)
That was it. That's just how it felt. So you know, which then took me down a different path. But here we meet today and we're on the same vibration, the same wavelength. It's amazing,
Rob Brown (24:37)
Yes.
August Brice (24:40)
really. And I'm but I'm just so happy an actual medical doctor has these insights. And so we talked about the two things I wanted to cover.
August Brice (24:51)
Just a second ago, there was one third one, but I'm just so fascinated by this conversation. I hear what you're saying. We're not sure exactly what can change the way the exposure affects our bodies, but we are sure many, many, many times, in fact, the maybe the majority of times we're exposed, there is something happening biologically.
Rob Brown (25:18)
Yes. The
August Brice (25:18)
Okay.
Rob Brown (25:19)
body's reacting. The body is reacting, but for most people there's enough glutathione on board, or the cell doesn't go into oxidative stress. Perhaps there's an influx of cal th this all starts apparently from an influx of calcium. So the the EMFs impact proteins on the cell membranes, which then open up and calcium isn't able to flood into the cell. And that's the genesis for the oxidative stress.
Rob Brown (25:48)
so I believe happens regardless of of one's sen you know symptoms or but then if they have enough glutathione on board and they can oxidize those or reduce those reactive oxygen species, then they can be they they they regain their normal homeostasis.
Rob Brown (26:10)
It's just the constant exposure over and over and over again then leads to the depletion of those molecules and and then that's when people get sick. So I think it's really crucial to have periods of the day, particularly at night, for anybody to just live in in an electromagnetically clean environment so the body can heal and restore itself. But I wanted to throw out one more thing here. We're
August Brice (26:35)
Please.
Rob Brown (26:36)
talking about
Rob Brown (26:37)
variables in and in in the rouleau formation and there was one other one I wanted to mention. So this subject, there was one other time she didn't go into Rouleau, and it was after she had slept on a on an earthing pad, a grounding pad. And was fascinating. And I actually had another subject I studied in which she was in rouleau and I sat her on a grounding pad and it rouleau dissipated and I could see it dissipate with the ultrasound.
Rob Brown (27:07)
So it could be in some people the discharge of these anomalous currents into the earth then brings the body back into a normal coherent state and the low dissipates as and so that's another variable is the grounding, the way we're grounded to the earth.
August Brice (27:26)
Yeah, you know, I was at a EHS conference in I think it was 2017 in London. And we met with an I have a video about this and I interviewed seven or eight people, but the majority of people were feeling amazing out in the middle of nature in a completely EMF free environment.
August Brice (27:49)
Someone who worked on cell towers, no more psoriasis. Someone who did hi his entire business off of his phone and he was only nineteen years old, but was feeling like what he called a crickety old man felt wonderful in this nature environment. So I think there's a lot to be said for being just just bathed in
August Brice (28:12)
real energy and not having the I it it's fake energy. It's just man-made fake energy, right? That's just just everywhere on our body. Just just it feels to me always like it's just a bunch of darts hitting me all at once. You know, and then I g when I go under
Rob Brown (28:31)
Yes. Yeah.
August Brice (28:33)
my my canopy, I have a a anti radiation, beautiful organic canopy I sleep under.
August Brice (28:40)
It just feels like I am outside, like I am grounding. And I'm a firm believer in natural grounding. I'm not so sure about grounding through an electrical outlet these days with all the dirty electricity can also somehow combine with grounding net. So I've I've found a lot of relief from just touching the ground, being outside in nature. Like
Rob Brown (29:03)
Right.
August Brice (29:04)
you're talk like you're saying. And so I did want to ask you because
August Brice (29:10)
you know all about radiation, the difference when people do say non-ionizing versus ionizing radiation, we're we're pretty clear we shouldn't have a lot of x-rays, But which one is more dangerous to our body?
Rob Brown (29:25)
Well, I think ionizing radiation is clearly more dangerous to our body. th the big difference is you know, when you have an X ray or a CAT scan, you're you're being exposed for a matter of seconds and then it's over. and so you compare to twenty four seven exposure to non ionizing radiation, all of a sudden the non ionizing radiation becomes more of a health concern because
Rob Brown (29:55)
of the the chronicity of it. And that's really the issue. and a lot of the studies have been done have come up with negative results are done with short term short term exposures. And you really need long-term chronic exposure to end up with some of these chronic diseases because that's what they are. They're chronic diseases from chronic exposure. If you expose somebody for 10 minutes to a Wi-Fi, you know, if you're if you have
Rob Brown (30:24)
EHS, you might feel something from it. But again, feeling is variable depending on your current state, your state of hydration, your there's so many variables impact. And unfortunately, and this is one of the things has kind of created a lot of confusion in the literature in terms of people with EHS, is they did these studies called provocation studies, where they
Rob Brown (30:54)
They had groups of people who had had s EHS and they they tried to expose them to either a sham or to a cell phone or something was emitting the radiation, and the people couldn't tell
August Brice (31:10)
Couldn't tell.
Rob Brown (31:11)
if they were being exposed or not. And again, we're talking about short-term exposure, we're talking about something where
Rob Brown (31:20)
it's it's subtle and perhaps it takes a while for somebody to start if if somebody has no EMF in their environment for a period of time and then they're exposed, it could be there's a delay in in in feeling the impact as opposed to it like turning on a light. So yeah. Yeah.
August Brice (31:39)
Isn't interesting? That is exactly it. And
August Brice (31:42)
and I I would like to know more about phenomenon because you would think it's the opposite. You've had no exposure, you get the exposure. Ouch. No, it's much worse being in a city these days, like say, I love New York, but we were in New York recently and it was just, just so uncomfortable.
Rob Brown (31:58)
Same here.
Rob Brown (31:59)
Same experience. Same experience here.
August Brice (32:01)
And then it
August Brice (32:02)
it felt like just back in the room, I always travel with a with a canopy as well, but back in the room it felt like just even my husband's phone being on was like, turn off. It made me more sensitive.
Rob Brown (32:17)
Right. Right. And people who have had acute exposures to really high levels of EMF, then they often will or maybe not often, but they they have an increased chance of becoming EHS after So
August Brice (32:33)
Correct.
Rob Brown (32:34)
so it's it's it's kinda like well some people consider it like a a like a if you have a bucket and you're filling it with water
Rob Brown (32:43)
then the the water the bucket slowly empties as you as you're away from it for a period of time, but then when you get exposed, it starts to fill up again. If your bucket's full and then you have exposure, then it's gonna overflow. You're gonna have symptoms. So it it it there's there's analogy. but yeah it's it's very it's it's it's a terrible thing because people are suffering and there's there's a there's there are voices out there are dismissing it.
Rob Brown (33:12)
And I find particularly objectionable because I just think it's unkind and it's wrong to to dismiss people who are sick with this. It's it's awful we don't have any safe spaces in our cities for people to be where they are they are like w why do we have to be exposed to this? You know, even if you even if you're in your own if if you're in your own home and you do everything just the way you want it, you know, you create the windows, the the windows you do the wiring.
August Brice (33:38)
Right. Hard wire, shielded, yes.
Rob Brown (33:42)
y you have everything's hardwired, you have Ethernet cables, then all of a sudden they put a a cellphone tower across the street from your house and they they blast this radiation through your walls. You have no control over
August Brice (33:54)
Absolutely. And you know, I love in your book, you give great direction as to what to do. and in addition to the book, Unplug Everyone, Rob is also involved with the Environmental Health Trust. And Deborah Davis founded the trust. And I remember her always saying this there is no safe level has been determined of EMF exposure. What do you think about Is there one now?
Rob Brown (34:21)
No. well, no, there's well, what I would say is this. Your retina l light is light is EMF, right? Visible light is is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. And your retina can detect one photon of of energy. That's how sensitive, you know, one photon in your your brain will pick it up. So our bodies are are definitely sensitive to this.
Rob Brown (34:50)
and our you know, our biology is such we have evolved with the sun as our major source of higher frequencies of of EMF, you know, visible light, infrared, and some ultraviolet radiation. And so we have chemicals in our skin, melanin and other they're called chromophores, and they absorb the light and they reflect it back into the environment as infrared energy. And process
Rob Brown (35:19)
keeps our bodies cool and it prevents the radiation from going deeper into our into our bodies. It protects our cells. If you think about it, that's that's how we're protected from natural forms of EMF is from melanin. And so you know people whose ancestors were were from the the southern latitudes where there's a lot of direct sunlight, they have darker skin
Rob Brown (35:44)
And people from the northern latitudes, they have less melanin because the sun was very rarely up in you know in the high in the sky. And so that's that's how we have evolved. and somebody just asked me about, well I'm sorry, let me get to finish this point. So we've been we've have evolved to refl absorb and reflect a certain bandwidth of energy, and that's the energy we are naturally exposed to from the sun.
Rob Brown (36:14)
The energy we're creating now is I'm sorry, I just got a thing from Deborah. It's from Deborah actually.
August Brice (36:19)
Is you? Okay. Wow.
August Brice (36:23)
See empathy thing works. We're where she's vibing us.
Rob Brown (36:27)
I know. I have I thought I had this on focus, but for some reason
August Brice (36:31)
August just mentioned you, by the way.
August Brice (36:35)
We knew you were gonna weigh in. Okay.
Rob Brown (36:36)
That's funny.
Rob Brown (36:38)
So anyway,
Rob Brown (36:39)
yeah, the frequencies we're being exposed to with our technology are not absorbed by these chromophores. They're very specific to a certain frequency range. And so all these frequencies from ELFs created by power lines and and and
Rob Brown (36:56)
radio frequency radiation from our wireless technology, millimeter waves, and all this stuff goes through the skin. It goes through the skin and into the body. And depending on the frequency, it has a different depth of penetration. So that's that's the th that's the issue. So it there's no safe level for somebody who has no no defense to it.
Rob Brown (37:20)
I mean some people have depleted immune systems
August Brice (37:23)
so
August Brice (37:24)
many people are exposed to so many other toxins
Rob Brown (37:27)
Right.
August Brice (37:28)
are contributing to just a an overall lack of well being and health for for ourselves.
Rob Brown (37:35)
Exactly.
August Brice (37:36)
So this is just one more. So okay, we're clear. There's no safe level of exposure. And then you touch for a moment on the millimeter wave, and now we know 6G is coming with the terahertz wave. Do you have any thoughts about being worse or better?
Rob Brown (37:52)
Terahertz is a higher frequency, so it's going to penetrate less deep than say the the gigahertz frequency band. But with being said, it's gonna deposit more energy. So it's gonna deposit more energy into the skin. It could end up causing s more skin problems, it could impact the eyes. I I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen.
Rob Brown (38:19)
And again, with the idea these waves are going to be modulated, it could be the they're modulating the terahertz frequency with lower frequency bands, which are then going to penetrate deeper. So we don't really understand enough. I d at least that's my understanding, to to r to really get it's safe. I d I don't think so.
August Brice (38:43)
So, and I just feel like it's one more layer on top of all the other layers because even 3G and 4G have not gone away. We still have
Rob Brown (38:50)
Right. Right.
August Brice (38:51)
cell phone tower with those waves traveling 75 miles, and then we've got, you know, the the small cells everywhere. It's just a mess for someone who's sensitive and even for people who are not.
Rob Brown (39:02)
The most intense exposure we're getting every day is from our phones. So I I tell people please don't put your cell phone up to your ear when you talk, use speaker mode. Don't keep an active cell phone in your pocket, and certainly don't put it in your bra. so th those are like them that's the easiest least behavior altering modification I could recommend is just
Rob Brown (39:31)
You know, and turn it off if you don't need it. Like would be but of course most people can't do They could never turn off their phone. But I would say, Yeah,
August Brice (39:38)
It's funny, isn't it? Yeah. True.
Rob Brown (39:40)
i I know. If people sleep with it, it's like, my God, how could you do It's gonna it's affecting the melatonin production People all over getting sick, and it's because of of this kind of stuff, you know, that's just melatonin is such an important compound for our immune system and to
Rob Brown (39:56)
to have the cell phone cell phone is producing an energy that's similar to light and the brain when it detects light stops producing melatonin because you're supposed to produce when you're in darkness. And so if you're sleeping next to this source of radiation, you're not going to produce the melatonin you're supposed to. And then you're right.
August Brice (40:15)
It's just like light. That's how we should envision it, right?
Rob Brown (40:18)
It's just like light. That's right.
August Brice (40:23)
and so how do you feel about it, you know, the quick fixes, the easier things people are looking toward? as this topic trends, so do all of the ideas for, you know, chips you put on your phone or a harmonizer you put in the middle of the room that's supposed to somehow change the waveform so it doesn't hurt you anymore. What do you think
Rob Brown (40:47)
Right.
August Brice (40:47)
about those things?
Rob Brown (40:50)
I don't know. I mean I I don't know I don't understand the science behind them. I I've I've I'm familiar with a lot of these products and I've read what they've had the I've read their testimonials.
Rob Brown (41:01)
Th well there's a couple of points to make. One is I don't believe there's any way to make the radiation safe in terms of changing the waveform. If you if you were going to totally make the radiation safe, you would absorb it and then you wouldn't be receiving the signal. So I there was there was one company sent me a product once. It was this this it was like a a pouch to put a cell phone in and they were saying, it's gonna
Rob Brown (41:30)
blocked the EMF from the cell phone, but you could still get a call through it and you could still talk through it. So obviously it wasn't blocking the radiation because you the radiation was coming through the pouch and it was still connecting to the network. similar
August Brice (41:44)
Right. You had me for a
August Brice (41:45)
second at at pouch because I do use a Faraday pouch seals all the way and then of course there's no signal. Right.
Rob Brown (41:53)
Right. Well that's different. Yeah. If if
Rob Brown (41:55)
if this was not this was not it had a wire attached to it and I I don't know, it was somebody who's trying to design a product to to sell. Yeah, it's there's a market here for people. People are looking for something, to to help them. There's there's the placebo effect and the nocebo effect, meaning you know, your mind can kind of create impact on your health. I certainly believe
Rob Brown (42:23)
And so if somebody believes something's going to help them, then perhaps maybe it will. in the same point if something big if somebody believes something's gonna hurt them, then it can do too. so there's there's aspect of it. But I don't you know what
August Brice (42:38)
And I love this. I I
August Brice (42:40)
can can we go a little deeper there? Because
Rob Brown (42:42)
Yeah.
August Brice (42:42)
yes, I completely agree with you. So we don't want to have fear, we wanna create awareness, but we also will reach a point where just believing something is gonna work doesn't work at all, it will
Rob Brown (42:55)
Right.
August Brice (42:55)
absolutely turn against us. And you know, w it will prove itself to not work. So where's line?
Rob Brown (43:05)
That's a good question. I mean, yeah, you don't wanna put your head in the sand and say, I've got this special amulet on me, I'm be I'm safe and therefore I can put the cell phone up to my head and and lo and behold, you're gonna end up with some sort of complication from the radiation. That's I think it's really important to be educated in this field and not and not to be swindled by some type of amulet or crystal or something you think is going to protect you. I I
Rob Brown (43:35)
Yeah, it's not about fear mongering and it's not about trying to get people to be afraid to use any technology. It's it's really more about just becoming educated and using it wisely and and turning it off when you're not using it. And creating a a space when you don't have any exposure at all. That's that's what I try to talk about in my book. Like, you know, just just create a space so you can rest every night and you can produce melatonin and you
Rob Brown (44:03)
heal and then you can start the next day and just try to limit exposure during the day. But as long as you have period of time at night, you can stay healthy, I believe. Except except if you have EHS. Then of course you're you've got symptoms. So you have to deal with
August Brice (44:18)
I love I love the fact I can feel it because I know when I'm safe and I know how I feel. It's great. And you're right. I do feel so much better and I'm I I feel like I rejuvenate and I'm able to go out into the world of EMF for a little while and then come back and be s and feel good. It's not like
Rob Brown (44:37)
Right.
August Brice (44:38)
I'm instantly inundated like it was in New York. That was different. That was just a probably an incredible
August Brice (44:43)
Incredibly high level of exposure. And it was more than a day, you know, just kept going and going. And by the way, when I fly, I also fly in a cocoon of this wonderful material insulates me from the EMF. It doesn't drop it completely because it's become so strong, the exposures. And so,
Rob Brown (45:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
August Brice (45:02)
but it's down, it's down to a much more tolerable level. And that's another question. Well, we said there's no safe level, but there's definitely for me a more tolerable level.
August Brice (45:13)
So
August Brice (45:13)
why is Why do I feel better when it's at moderate than when it's extreme than it's ex when the level is extreme?
Rob Brown (45:23)
It's probably because it's affecting less of your body, you know. I d I don't know. I think that's unique to all of us. It's the what what one person f senses as being tolerable might be intolerable to somebody else, and another person might be insensitive to all of it. So it's just it's so variable. I don't it's kinda like going out to see the fireworks or going out on the ocean and you're you're on a boat and you're surrounded by waves and
Rob Brown (45:49)
One person might get seasick while another person might be enjoying it, another person might feel a little bit que you know, it's we just have different sensitivities to to energy. all forms of energy.
August Brice (45:59)
That's true. That's true.
August Brice (46:01)
Right. right. And but doesn't mean even if we were out on the sea and we were being jumbled all time, probably something isn't happening inside biologically anyway. Right? Just from well, from amaz right, right.
Rob Brown (46:12)
Right. Yeah, the jostling, right.
August Brice (46:17)
That's what I'm envisioning anyway, I'm jostling it. Even if I don't feel anything, it's probably doing something inside. So anyway, this is yes.
Rob Brown (46:24)
You know, you mentioned the canopy, the the sleeping canopy,
Rob Brown (46:27)
and I I used one of those too. when I was starting the book, I was living in a on seven acres. I had no radiation in my home at all when I turned the Wi-Fi router off. It was wonderful. And then I moved into the city of Pittsburgh and I ended up surrounded by Wi Fi's of both neighbors and people down the street, and there was a four G antenna down the road and
Rob Brown (46:51)
Anyway, I had to buy a sleep canopy like you were mentioning, and I felt the same way you described. It felt like I was in a cocoon. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. It was wonderful until they installed a five G small cell across the street from my house.
August Brice (47:07)
A millimeter wave? Yeah, it doesn't work. No. Too tiny. Yeah.
Rob Brown (47:09)
millimeter waves. The other th the it doesn't work. So people need to be aware of Right. So
Rob Brown (47:16)
those waves go right through sleep canopy.
August Brice (47:19)
I realized immediately. I when I found one, I took my my canopy over to it and put the meter on the other side and I realized it's not blocking millimeter wave. However, then I went into the house was right next to this. I mean, it was literally in their front yard. And we're talking a small street front yard, so maybe 50 feet to the house. I went into the house and there was no millimeter wave detected at all. So the one good thing is millimeter wave doesn't travel very
August Brice (47:49)
far and I don't really feel like it's getting into our homes.
August Brice (47:53)
as much as obviously as the other radiation, but I think that's a very unstable wave and it's not moving very far. And so we have a lot of protection just from construction. I think we are inviting the millimeter wave in with our new devices. I mean Wi-Fi's new Wi-Fi's have millimeter wave. My husband's new phone has the millimeter wave in it. I have an iPhone 11 because I'm not introducing the millimeter wave into my life if I don't have to. But was my experience. So I wonder
August Brice (48:23)
I want to know how far away were you from tower it was getting into your home?
Rob Brown (48:30)
It was across the street and I was in the third bedroom, but all the the the the rooms in the back of the house were not exposed. There were no there was no detectable energy in the back of the house, but in the front of the house it was it was high. But was what was also interesting is if you called up the network to download a video or something, there would be a blast of energy. It was brief, but but the beam is focused and it intensifies and it just blasts out energy.
Rob Brown (48:59)
That then would go all the way to the back of the house.
August Brice (49:01)
I've heard I've heard about this. I'm so sad about it. It's crazy.
Rob Brown (49:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
August Brice (49:06)
Now, did you have a millimeter wave connection? You must have in order to feel blast. So was in your phone or your computer or on your TV?
Rob Brown (49:15)
We had
Rob Brown (49:16)
we were doing a study in the house and we had we were down we downloaded something on a phone and had the detector there to see what the impact would be and we measured we surveyed it. Yeah.
August Brice (49:29)
Okay, and then also, was your canopy made of pure silver? Was it conductive? Because I've also had problems with those. They're so conductive. It
Rob Brown (49:39)
It was. Yeah, it was conductive and it was grounded. Yeah.
August Brice (49:42)
was grounded, but even if it's grounded and conducted, it does take outside energy, pushes it back at you, and magnifies it.
Rob Brown (49:51)
Interesting.
August Brice (49:52)
there's different there are different canopy fabrications. Some do have to be grounded, some do not have to be grounded. And so I would go with a non-necessary grounded situation, and I would be so careful of having any wireless in my home at all in situation. So
Rob Brown (50:12)
Yeah.
August Brice (50:14)
but anyway, that's very interesting.
August Brice (50:16)
Can you tell me, just the last question, fascinating, how did you get involved in the environmental health trust?
Rob Brown (50:24)
So I wrote this book, Unplug, and I sent it to Deborah Davis to see if she might endorse it for me because I was looking for you know, I was looking for people to endorse it. And initially I didn't hear back from her and I sent her a follow-up email and she said, Yep, you know, please send me the book. And so I sent it to her, and then my next message back from her was we need to talk. So
August Brice (50:49)
Yeah, she could recognize greatness, really. This is
Rob Brown (50:53)
We had a long conversation
August Brice (50:53)
it's true.
Rob Brown (50:56)
and she invited me to be a scientific advisor for environmental health trust. I did for a few months and then she invited me to be a vice president for scientific research and clinical affairs. And so I've been doing now for it's I think it's been about three years. And yeah, I I I adore Deborah. We've worked really well together.
August Brice (51:15)
Tell me, what are your goals with the trust? What you personally and particularly, what are you guys hoping to accomplish now?
Rob Brown (51:22)
We're
Rob Brown (51:23)
we're trying to document real effects of the radiation. So we want to do more work with Roulot. We're try we're looking at the impact of radiation on people on the retina, the blood flow in the retina. so those are my immediate goals. yeah. And I mean it right now we're also doing some other work I can't really talk about, but it's it's been we're busy.
August Brice (51:51)
Good, good. Right. I know there's the lawsuit and the lawsuit was pretty much ignored by the FCC, which is
Rob Brown (51:52)
Very busy. Yeah, it it's it's a great organization. Just a lawsuit. Right.
August Brice (52:00)
is in which is the problem, honestly. You know, if we had a government body even acknowledged their own research, the National Toxicology Program pointing to heart cancer and brain cancer, we'd be a lot better off. But instead,
Rob Brown (52:15)
Right.
August Brice (52:16)
you know, was just animals.
August Brice (52:18)
How many studies as of as a doctor, how many studies are done on animals when you're researching a toxic
Rob Brown (52:25)
Yeah, it's a com it's a com
August Brice (52:26)
exposure?
Rob Brown (52:28)
Well certainly it's a common practice. It's been going on for a hundred years and yeah, it's they just don't want to. And I think we mentioned earlier in the in our discussion well I think yeah, you said you had a relative who told you the the cell phone could cause brain cancer l long time ago, like decades ago, before we don't need we have all the reasons the research has been done. It's not this is not a scientific
Rob Brown (52:54)
question anymore. We know there are non-thermal effects. it's just a matter of convincing industry and our government it's significant enough they need to change direction. create safer products. You know, we have all these electric cars. Well why can't they make an electric car has an electromagnetically neutral interior? So if you're in the car, you're not being exposed to EMFs. You know, why why
August Brice (53:20)
I have
Rob Brown (53:20)
can't y you know, I mean there's gotta be technol a way to do
August Brice (53:24)
There is. It's just grounding the wires properly. But then there's also the wireless energy just about every new car maker now does not allow us to turn off completely.
Rob Brown (53:35)
Right.
August Brice (53:36)
And then it's just magnified in metal environment. But anyway, real quickly, what Rob was referring to was a conversation we had before we started where I talked about how the first time I picked up a cell phone, I could feel the energy. And it was in a conversation with my father, who was a nuclear physicist, who
Rob Brown (53:51)
Right.
August Brice (53:52)
told me to put the phone down because it
Rob Brown (53:55)
Yeah, exactly.
August Brice (53:56)
would give me brain cancer. So I've been and I laughed it off.
Rob Brown (53:58)
Yeah, I d I don't know if you wanted to
Rob Brown (54:01)
divulge information. That's why I was l little bit more squirrely about it.
August Brice (54:04)
I should put
August Brice (54:04)
part of I'm going to it's fine. I'm gonna put the the rest of video up so people can hear it because you know it turned out I now finally to to answer question, have we seen because I've heard people say it's not true, but have we seen an uptick in brain cancer in any age group you personally are aware of be since the advent of cell phones?
Rob Brown (54:30)
I I personally have not seen I I I don't I don't I don't I have not in my practice seen an increased instance of brain cancer. But what I will say is it takes a long time for brain cancers to grow. And so the the use the increased use we're we've been seeing in the in the past twenty years might not surface for another ten years.
August Brice (54:53)
Wow.
Rob Brown (54:54)
So it you know, it's really there's just there's a delay in in
Rob Brown (55:00)
There's a delay in manifestation of disease. So you know, I don't know, but I will also say habits are changing in terms of you know the newer generation, they don't even talk on the phone. The younger generation, all they do is text. So it it could be we never see like we kind of hit a bubble and now because cell phone habits have changed, we're not gonna see impact anymore. but I am very concerned about
Rob Brown (55:29)
the impact of the wireless communication on the thyroid gland, which is very superficial, and white blood cells. I think the the combination of thyroid dysfunction and the impact on the white the white blood cells, natural killer cells in particular, are potentially increasing your risk for other cancers because you're
August Brice (55:53)
Interesting.
Rob Brown (55:54)
your you know your pancreas, the colon, all kinds of GI cancers are becoming really, really common. you know, your body is supposed to ferret these things out and kind of kill them before they they take hold. And that's the job of the natural killer cell. But EMFs have been shown to negatively impact the behavior of natural killer cells. So it's impacting and also thyroid dysfunction. Yeah.
August Brice (56:18)
That's huge information. That's huge.
Rob Brown (56:21)
Yeah. And then not and thyroid also
Rob Brown (56:24)
If you have thyroid dysfunction also impacts your natural killer cell activity. So these two pieces of the puzzle, they they may be in increasing the rate of cancers you know in in distant locations.
August Brice (56:40)
you know, not just cancer. I have the latest
August Brice (56:45)
brain tumor registry shows in the age group fifteen to thirty nine, there is a higher incidence of tumors than ever before.
Rob Brown (56:58)
Right. Right. So there's different types of tumors like meningiomas and and acoustic neuromas. There's different types of tumors in the brain and yeah, it's really I know I know when this first when I first started doing research, people were wondering about the increased incidence of acoustic neuromas, which is a benign tumor can affect
August Brice (57:21)
Right. Right there.
Rob Brown (57:23)
the the nerves going into the ear. I haven't, you know, in my practice I haven't seen
Rob Brown (57:28)
and I haven't I don't know, some of these things might be specific to certain frequencies, they could be again related to cell phone habits, the skewed populations for study. It it it's so it's it's difficult to nail down. It's really difficult to nail down.
August Brice (57:47)
Well you had me at
August Brice (57:48)
decreasing natural killer cells, honestly. Right.
Rob Brown (57:50)
Yeah. Well that's
Rob Brown (57:53)
a different that's a different impact. There's so many impacts.
August Brice (57:55)
Well
Rob Brown (57:56)
There's so many it's there's so many impacts of non-ionizing radiation. It's just mind boggling they're just they're still trying to kick the can down the road.
August Brice (58:06)
Right. There are so many potential problems, really. That's what
Rob Brown (58:10)
Yeah.
August Brice (58:11)
these thousands of research studies tell us. So thank you so much. Is there anything else
Rob Brown (58:16)
this was a pleasure.
August Brice (58:18)
you'd like to tell us from the book I'm missing?
Rob Brown (58:22)
just my message to everybody is to go out and enjoy enjoy the natural world. this is you know, we live in a beautiful and a and our world is a beautiful place and if get away from technology, just go out and be with nature and and just be present with the natural surroundings. It's and then you'll waken up. I just feel like people have gone asleep with all this constant entertainment and it's really damaging t in so many ways.
August Brice (58:51)
It's just like the most wonderful thing you could have said. Thank you so much. I feel good just hearing it.