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Thriving with Technology Podcast: Myths & Truths About EMFs with The Man Who Detects Them, Rob Metzinger


On this episode of Thriving With Technology, I talk with Rob Metzinger, engineer and building biologist, about EMF’s or Electro Magnetic Fields.  EMF’s carry the information that we send and receive on all our digital devices.  Multiple studies over three decades point to biological damage from EMF’s, so we should all do what we can to reduce our exposure to them.  Rob’s company designs and builds a great line of EMF meters that I love and they're one of the companies I feature on Tech Wellness. 

Rob also consults with people and helps them reduce their exposure in their homes.  He also teaches classes at the Building Biology Institute. Over the years, I've talked to researchers, scientists, to public policy people, to people who suffer from EHS. But it’s great to talk to someone who truly understands the properties of the waves and can help us shield and stop them effectively.  

I also love the fact that Rob helps us separate what’s true from so much of the other stuff on the internet, that may not be completely true.  People have really latched on to things like Shungite, a black mineral that is 98% carbon that somehow has been turned into the miracle cure for radiation (spoiler alert—It’s not), EMF protective clothing, EMF blocking device cases—you can even find videos online with tens of thousands of views that say all you need to do is put a house plant in the room and it will suck out the EMF (again—not).

You’ll learn what works and what doesn’t work and how to best protect you and your family. A lot of this I’ve known intuitively for years, but it’s so nice to talk

the about why there's issues with EMF protective clothing, talks about plants.  these are things I've known intuitively for a long time, but it's so nice to hear an engineer’s perspective. 

Hope you enjoy the episode.  If you aren’t sensitive to EMF’s and have no idea what the fuss is all about, I’m including a link to an earlier episode where we journeyed to England and talked to people who suffer from Electromagnetic Hyper-Sensitivity or EHS and you’ll understand the profound impact that EMF can have.

No matter if you're sensitive to EMF's or not, I urge people who are worried about the proven health effects of these information carrying radio ways to get their own meter.  It really makes those invisible waves visible, so you and your family can maintain a safe distance from the source of the radiation.

Here's a special incentive for listeners of Thriving With Technology to "meter up" through February, 2021:

Save $11 off the Super Power Classic EMF Meter and $23 off the Pro 2 EMF Meter!  That's our biggest meter discount to date.

At checkout, enter code:  METER1

Finally, if you like the program, please subscribe and tell your friends—and we really appreciate those reviews on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get yours.  Be Well!




Read the full transcription here: 


August Brice: Hello, welcome back to thriving with technology. I'm August Brice. This is our first podcast of 2021. Our first in a while actually. Today is a good one. We're speaking with Rob Metzinger, president of Safe Living Technologies. He's one of the top experts I've ever talked to on wireless EMF or what's called radio frequency radiation. He teaches classes on EMF radiation at the Institute of building biology. In this episode, he talks about the importance of detecting and protecting, he shares tips on using shielding and other EMF protection and the importance of a certified EMF meter. Rob is one of the world's leading authorities on detecting EMF in your environment, his team at safe living technologies, even designs and makes meters which I love. I've got one in my hand right now. I keep one in the car, I have one at the office. And the reason I do is it helps to make or does, it doesn't just help it makes the invisible wireless energy visible and Rob even put sound signatures on his meter. 

So right now what you're hearing from this meter is nothing, but I'm going to turn Bluetooth on my computer. I'm sitting in front of my computer now, hear that? That's the sound of Bluetooth, wireless energy. Now we're going to add WiFi. Okay, Hear that? That's WiFi energy. Oh, listen to that. Okay, those are two different sounds of EMF radiation. And it's so important to know about EMF in your environment. And you might even be thinking, why should I care about EMF? Well, it's because it's everywhere in our digital age, we just couldn't do wireless without it. It comes from the invisible waves of energy that are present when wireless devices are turned on. So you've got a smartphone or any device, your laptop, a tablet, your Alexa, even those virtual reality headsets that I think are so crazy. Or a [inaudible 00:02:06], any device that's using cell signal, or WiFi or Bluetooth is emitting EMF radiation. 

And now we've got over 30 years of peer reviewed scientific research. And there's no doubt that this type of EMF has a biological effect on our bodies. But we all react differently, which is good and most of us don't notice them at all. But it doesn't mean that they're not impacting us because they are. It's like other toxins. EMFs are the reason I started Tech Wellness. I figured out years ago that I was sensitive to it. And it's probably going to seem strange to some of you, but I can literally feel the tingling energy from a smartphone when it's in my hand, it does not feel good. I know the WiFi is on in my house, In fact, it wakes me up. And that's why the WiFi in this house is unplugged to put away and used only in emergency situations. People refer to people like me as a canary in the coal mine for EMF radiation. 

I've got this video of the first time, I actually held a cell phone in my hands. It was Christmas 30 years ago. And you can see that I actually cringe and my body jolts when the phone turns on. And you know, for many years, I thought that everybody could feel the same thing I was feeling. So actually, it was really a gift for me to start connecting the dots early back when I did because back then I was like a total outlier, you had to search hard to understand the mechanics behind how these wireless devices were communicating and the physics behind what was happening. And as I did, I started to find out more and more scientific studies were showing that there indeed was a biological reaction to this radiation. And I discovered the book Cellphones Invisible Hazards Of The Wireless Age by George Carlo. And that really got me going on my way.

As I learned more, I started looking for ways to turn down those physical reactions that I was having. And I wanted to address the other issues that the digital age was bringing with it like privacy concerns and the fact that I could see how so many of the people I loved and knew were becoming enthralled with their phones. Because you know, I couldn't use mine, I could observe what was going on. And I saw that it was almost to the point of obsession. I started blogging and sharing what I learned. And today Tech Wellness is a platform with information, experts and solutions that empower people to live balanced with technology. Check it out for science back solutions. We're not about fear, we're about mindful living. We believe you can thrive in the digital age. We focus on mind, body, spirit and safety. And your mind, to be focused your spirit to be more connected and present and your safety so that you can guard your privacy and your body to be healthier. 

And that's why today in this podcast, we're focusing on how to find and protect yourself from the invisible EMF in your environment. So right now, here's my chat with Rob Metzinger. I'll be back at the end with my five top takeaways and a special offer. Hi, Rob. 

Rob Metzinger: Hi, August. 

August Brice: So great to talk to you. I am really thrilled to be able to talk to you today because I'm just fascinated by your company. I'm fascinated that you build and create meters and that your business has probably just exploded, right? 

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, it's definitely increased, correct. Awareness is growing daily on this topic.

August Brice: You can say that again, we're in the middle of it. This topic is definitely trending. So I'm really happy to talk to someone who knows inside and out what's going on. And I first want to start with you really are off the grid, aren't you? 

Rob Metzinger: I'm in the country, I'm half an hour away from the nearest town and RFY is it's pretty quiet over [inaudible 00:05:58]. 

August Brice: So places like that RFY's off the grid still exist?

Rob Metzinger: There are sheltered spots, sheltered areas where RF is not as strong as other areas. In these days, they're difficult to find. And you definitely have to go out into the country and perhaps in a forested environment as well, or out in the mountains and foothills in some areas. They are out there, they are difficult to find. 

August Brice: And so for people who might be listening who don't know what RF is, that's radio frequencies. That's the field that comes from all wireless energy, right? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Yes. Anything that has a wireless transmitter units, radio frequency radiation.

August Brice: And so when you go outside, outside in your backyard, do you pick up any of this RF EMF? 

Rob Metzinger: Yes, we do. It's impossible to avoid everything. So when I go into my yard, in the summertime, it's really good on the safe and sound pro two meter, I'm getting readings of under five microwatts per square meter in the outside area. We're surrounded by a lot of deciduous trees. And when those leaves fall on fall time and into winter, my readings go up, they go up to 20, 30, 40 microwatts per square meter. Because the leaves on the trees aren't shielding me as good as they are in the summertime. 

August Brice: So it's not a myth. Trees, actually and maybe this is because these trees are very dense. But trees can shield EMF?

Rob Metzinger: Absolutely any obstruction can block radiofrequency radiation, yes.

August Brice: Super. I didn't think that we would be talking about this particular topic. But I do want to know, because people ask me all the time, if they fill up their office with plants, will they be protected from the wireless energy? I mean from their desktop or their laptop? 

Rob Metzinger: I don't believe so. I think you will need to like in my case, it's cell phone tower radiation. So the cell phone towers are maybe about half a mile away from me. And the trees are between me and the source which are the towers. And when they're in blossom, or when the leaves are out, they're made of water and other components. And they physically block the radio wave signals from passing through as a radio wave signals travel primarily in a straight line. And you know there's a direct shield between me and the source with these leaves. Now, just having plants scattered randomly in an office is probably not going to do it, you would have to stack metal pretty densely between you and the source, which is a wireless router.

August Brice: You would have to know exactly [inaudible 00:09:01] the source was. If you were just in an office building, and you weren't sure exactly where the router was, even if it was a densely packed area trees or house plants, you'd have to know exactly where the direction was coming from?

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. And It's challenging in an office environ because you're getting reflections off wall surfaces. On my case, it's a direct line of sight to these towers, and there's no reflections coming in from other directions. So whereas in the inside in an office, radio waves reflect off all surfaces, so you can have some plants between you and the router, but I'm not sure how effective that's even going to be to block them. But there's other pathways that these signals will take they'll bounce off ceilings, floors and walls and reflects all over the place then eventually make it to you. So that's a challenge about shielding an indoor environment with all these reflections off of other surfaces.

August Brice: Okay so everybody, listen, bottom line, plants are beautiful, they can definitely enhance your environment, but please do not depend on them to block the EMF radiation coming from your wireless devices. It's just, it's not a thing. It can't possibly be. So thank you Rob. Thanks for clearing that up. I've talked to people about that, but they're, we have a lot of myths going around. Because the topic is so interesting to people. And so one of the myths is, fill your, not do they only say fill, they say, get a house plant and that way, you don't have to worry about the EMF radiation. And there are very popular articles and even EMF "Specialists" that are recommending this as a type of shielding. And my concern is that people might feel that they're protected and then end up having the consequences of not being protected. So that's why.

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, August, there's some points here to make as well. And any of these theories should be measured before they can verify the effectiveness. There're all sorts of things that could be happening that we just don't see. And unless you're there and do an investigation on exactly what's happening, measurements before and after are critical. And that's to prove anything for sure. And that's what you need to do, you need to do measurements before and measurements after and analyze the data that you gather. And if there is some type of shielding going on by chance, an investigation and trying to understand what's going on is always required.

August Brice: So that's so[inaudible 00:11:44]. That's so correct. And that is why I love your company, Safe Living Technologies. Because not only do you design, build and selling meters, but you also do the consulting, and the teaching, which is so important right now. But what I really wanted to talk to you about today were these amazing tools that you create. That Rob makes meters that can make the invisible EMF energy visible. And when he talks about assessing the situation, like an EMF shielding situation before and then after, you're talking about using those meters, right? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Yes, meters are great, but also having some certified data behind them to verify what they do is really important as well. And we're all for that also. 

August Brice: Oh absolutely. Yes. And actually you do all that. But how does one begin to go into the business of making a meter? I'm just really curious. How did that begin for you? Making EMF meters particularly?

Rob Metzinger: Right. Well, yeah, it was a long process for me, because we've been in this business for close to 20 years now. And it's recognizing all the meters I've seen along the way and what they're capable of doing, and what I wish they did. And some performed really well, some performed poorly. It's analyzing all of the meters that I've seen and trying to take the best qualities from each one and pack it into one and make it reasonably priced. So yeah, it was a chore of analyzing many different types of meters over the years and trying to make one that was certified, that was affordable, and performed well.

And also we're concerned with measuring really low levels, because of the people we deal with are electrically sensitive. And they require meters to measure very small levels of radiofrequency radiation. So there's a specialty, it takes a special type of engineering to make a meter that's sensitive enough to do that. And a lot of the meters out there are geared for industry guidelines and industry guidelines are interested in measuring really high levels of radiation as opposed to low levels. So now there was a lot of testing we had to do in order to make it that sensitive for electrically sensitive people. So it was a long journey in order to create these meters and to get them to the specifications that we wanted them to be at. 

August Brice: Well, you have two really beautiful meters that I love using. So how long did it take to create those or even the first one that you came out with which was the classic, the smaller one? Is that the right one?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, the classic took us about a year of development and learning and understanding what we're developing. And yeah we started with that and then built off the pro from the basics, we learned from the classic. Now approximately a year of development, and then the pro took us about another year to develop as well. So it's quite a process of going into these testing labs and testing chambers, running some experiments to test how your meters perform. And then going back to the engineering and design phase to try and perfect what you're measuring.

August Brice: Okay. Is it a group of people that does this together? Or do you just do this yourself?

Rob Metzinger: No, we have an engineering team we work with as well. And it's a whole team effort coming at it from all different directions.

August Brice: And you talked about how you measure for sensitive people. Tell us a little bit about that? About the background of how you determine what a sensitive person can be exposed to? 

Rob Metzinger: All right, well, it comes down to building biology guidelines. And these guidelines are designed for measuring the biological effects that can affect a human being. These building biology guidelines are set at very low levels, compared to industry guidelines. And what we're finding is that we can create an environment that has less than 10 microwatts per square meter, and many of these electrically sensitive people are able to exist something free. And that's the goal, to try and make an electrically sensitive person comfortable in an environment. And that's basically what we have to do. And we have to make sure the meter is able to measure accurately at those low levels. At 0.1 microwatts per square meter, all the way to 10 microwatts per square meter. 

August Brice: Right. And so, what we're talking about if you have a safe and sound classic, and if you want to go on our website, or Rob's website and see one, we're talking about being in that green area, or can we hop over to that yellow area, when you're talking about the EMF sensitivity? Are we talking slight or moderate?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, when we design the meters, we want to be simple so you're in a safe and sound classic, basically green is good, right? Go flashing green light is ideal. It's below one microwatts per square meter. And if you're selling the green, you're below 10 microwatts per square meter.

August Brice: And so I actually am fortunate enough to live in a home as well, that keeps me in a flashing green. But I've come to my office, I can't... Well, once we went through the office and we took the meter everywhere and we were able to just by eliminating sources that were coming out of our office, like people's phones and people's computers and people's wireless speakers, we were able to get into a solid moderate [inaudible 00:18:19]. And we're surrounded by other people's WiFi's. We're on a busy street. And so that did give me hope. What do you think about a situation that's just straight moderate?

Rob Metzinger: Right. Well, these building biology guidelines are designed for sleeping environments. So it's really critical to get your sleeping environment as low as possible. So your body can do its repairing from its daytime exposure. And when you're working during the daytime, in an office environment, it's really tough to control sometimes. And you do the best you can, like you did and getting it to a moderate level which is between 10 and 100 microwatts per square meter might be the best you can do. And that's what you got to adapt to and live with. Obviously, green if you can, but not always possible in a work environment, It's challenging. 

August Brice: I think so. I think and I love the standards and I love how you've listed all the standards from different organizations on your website. I list standards as well, but my standards for personally are much more generous because I could find really very few people that could get into that low environment and I didn't want to discourage them. I wanted to help them at the very least put their phone three feet away. Just hope that they would, at the very least take some of the awareness of it, but not be completely afraid unless of course they do have EHS and I do want to talk about that in a second. Just how the levels have increased dramatically. But first I want to ask you do you have EHS? 

Rob Metzinger: I don't. I believe I'm a little bit aware of my environment. If I concentrate enough, when I'm in a high exposure area, I can feel things change a little bit. First thing that happens to me is I see the back of my neck starts tensing up and getting a little stiff, and a headache will start developing. You know, I only know that because I've done this so many times and In a clean environment, when we go out and do our testing, and I have high exposure for long periods of time, you notice these little things. And that's kind of what I've noticed. And then when I get back to my home or my office, where it's a quiet environment, again, those symptoms will go away after a day or so. 

August Brice: So, the symptoms are what? You feel a bit of a tension?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, exactly. For me, it tenses up the back of my neck, and then it'll develop into a headache hours or into the evening. And it usually takes a day or so to go away. But yeah, if you can monitor your environment and know you're in a clean environment and know how you feel, once you go into a polluted RF environment, you may notice different symptoms coming along, make note of them. And see if it happens, again, and again, when you go from a quiet to a noisy RF environment. These electrically sensitive people that come to us, they're very sharp, because they self diagnose this on their own. They've proved this to themselves over and over again, confirming that they are electrically sensitive by going into quiet environments and noisy environments and noting the differences that happened to them when they go into these environments. 

August Brice: I love hearing from someone who doesn't have EHS like you, because we know or we know there's a biological effect on everyone. However, we're more sensitive, we can get away from it, because it's so profound. The feelings are for me, also are just so profound. But I do believe that people who aren't sensitive, may be feeling those things like you said, the tension, maybe anxiety and maybe a headache. And it's so nice to quantify your situation like you're recommending people do, so that they can maybe even see how much better they feel without it and then benefit from not being around EMF, If they don't have to be.

Rob Metzinger: Exactly, yeah, just do... This is all about doing experiments to see what makes you feel better. And a lot of the business is part of that, giving people options in order to get symptom relief or feeling better. 

August Brice: Have you been able to help people with what you do? Not just detecting, but also the mitigation efforts that you make in the shielding efforts that you make? Have you been able to help people? And have you seen changes? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, I definitely with shielding, there's changes or even as simple as turning off your WiFi router, getting rid of the[inaudible 00:23:14] in your home. And all of a sudden, people are starting to sleep at night. We also noticed this when we shut off power in the sleeping area. You know, it's not just radio frequency waves that are affecting electrically sensitive people, it's exposure to power as well. So dealing with both of these factors, yeah can make a huge difference. You know, some people it affects immediately and they see results immediately. Some it can take a while it can take weeks, it can take months, everybody their own biological, same damage or tech center hurt in their body and the healing process and results are different in each person. So it's hard to really to know what to expect from each person because everybody's different.

August Brice: And that's true. We're all different. And I've always compared it to just other toxins. We might find people who are sensitive to chlorine bleach, and maybe immediately they're symptom free, and maybe others it takes a while to heal. And so to me, I compare it to just other toxins in the environment, if people want to try to understand what we're talking about. Does that resonate with you as well? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, absolutely. It's a perfect way of looking at it. Yes. 

August Brice: And so, you talked for a second about shielding. And you mentioned it just now and I know that you have also developed shielding products, what type of shielding have you developed? I'm curious about that? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, we're trying to keep it economical as well. So basic, we don't carry a lot of shielding materials, we carry some basic materials and one of them is aluminum foil, aluminum foil believe it or not, straight out of your kitchen cupboard is an excellent shield. It's a solid piece of metal that blocks radio waves very effectively. So we have a material that's like a builder's grade aluminum foil material, that-

August Brice: Okay. Where would we put that? So Rob, so just so that everyone listening understands what to do with that aluminum foil, do we wrap it on the back of our phones?

Rob Metzinger: The product that we were using, It's designed to be placed between you and the source. So this builder's grade material is basically designed to be used as a vapor barrier. So we go underneath drywall, if you're building a new home, and you know form a barrier between you and the source, which should be a cell phone tower, that was designed for and of course, if you put a shield up in a house, or a room and don't want to have wireless devices inside that area, just because of the reflections that can be caused because of it. And that's basically how these signals are blocked, they're reflected back in the other direction. The aluminum foil was one item. There's an aluminum mesh as well, that can walk radio waves, believe it or not, the aluminum screen on your windows kind of works the same way. 

And basically metal that has threads in a certain grid pattern and blocks radio waves fairly effectively as well. Once we get into the very high gigahertz waves though, the wavelength is very small. So it can pass through these openings and mesh. But where we have that foil, that solid material, the radio waves, even the smaller wavelengths, it's solid piece of metal so they can't get through. Those are the two kind of building materials that we have. And we also carry different kinds of shielding fabrics. And these fabrics basically have this metal grid of wires woven into them as well and block RF. And we use it for curtains, and bed canopies. So those are two very popular items as well. And one of the main entry points for our [inaudible 00:27:03], can be through the windows. If they're older windows, especially in all the sleeping environments, we need to try and get down a little 10 microwatts per square meter. So [inaudible 00:27:12] canopies, RF shielding canopies are a really good solution for them. 

August Brice: And I love this, Rob, because I have tried shielding and you're making it sound very easy, and very practical and very protective. But I really think you should let people know about the situations that can occur If someone ends up installing it themselves. What do they look out for? 

Rob Metzinger: Right. Yeah, every type of mitigation has secondary effects in shielding RF definitely has that as well. And I look at shielding as kind of a last resort, we always like to try and eliminate all sources If at all possible and keep the environment as natural as possible. By installing shielding, you're creating an unnatural environment, and you got to look at it as a trade off, because you're going to create a secondary issue, but you're going to be blocking a primary main issue. Like if you're half a mile from a cell phone tower, and you're getting hit with high levels of microwave radiation, falling a shield could be very beneficial for you, if you install a shield, you don't have to worry about reflections on the inside, you need to make sure eliminate all your inside sources.

August Brice: Completely. So folks do not go and put a bunch of foil on your windows, and then turn on your cell phone inside or put your WiFi on inside. Correct? You've just defeated the purpose? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct as well. Yes, and definitely you have to understanding what the force is, implementing, detect by measuring, understand what the source is, protect, so install shielding and then verify afterwards with a measurement. Because [crosstalk 00:29:00] yeah, you always want to make sure that you measure after you shield because many strange things can happen with our shielding and for peace of mind and to be sure you always want to measure before and after to make sure that that result at the end is positive. 

August Brice: Exactly and I want to go back to something you said when you were talking about the screens, the metal screens and the wave that can actually get through the screen. Are you talking about a 5G wave?

Rob Metzinger: Yes millimeter waves are very high frequency waves have a very small wavelength. They can get through a lot of openings and these small openings in meshes. They can definitely get through those. And other property of these 5G waves is they have problems penetrating buildings in glass areas. So they often have difficulty getting into buildings, their cell phone companies have technology that helps them do that these beam forming transmitters that help them pass through buildings better, but they're still difficulty passing through buildings at the current power levels, that they're allowed to transmit at these days.

August Brice: Do you have a meter yet that can pick up that wave? 

Rob Metzinger: No, unfortunately, we don't. And unfortunately meters that are out there are kind of geared for industry as well. They are very expensive. And there's really nothing affordable out there right now that can measure those millimeter waves, you know, 2.4 gigahertz up to 90 gigahertz. So yeah, it's on our wish list for meters to design. We're working on it, but it's going to take some time for something to develop in that field. 

August Brice: And so you know, you hear it like we all have, we're hearing so much about 5G, and there's a lot of people have a lot of fear about it. What do you recommend in terms of detection and shielding as far as 5G goes? The actual millimeter wave that may or may not be out there right now? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, yeah, exactly. That's the thing. So we at this point in time, I think 99.99% of the waves out there from the cellular system is under six gigahertz. So almost all the standard methods for blocking 99.9 [inaudible 00:31:20]can be used. And for the 5G signals, you just have to make sure that the material you're using would work at 24 to 40, or 60 gigahertz. And a lot of materials have difficulty at those frequencies. So you're almost looking at all in metal to block the signals, because any little gap will let these little millimeter waves through. And yeah, solid metal. We know that shielding paint will do it as well as carbon based shielding paint. The window film that we have does very good at high frequencies as well. And it challenges with these frequencies actually penetrating buildings too. So there's very much still to learn about this. It's not, these signals aren't out there as much as we think they are at this point in time. Things may change and things always change in this business. So we'll just have to monitor and see how this true 5G development goes over time.

August Brice: So right now we can rest a little bit knowing that you said about 1% of the wireless energy out there may be this millimeter wave?

Rob Metzinger: Right. There're installations is out there. And it's primarily in highly densely populated areas, like some downtown streets in some major cities have this at this point in time, but for this technology to get out into the suburbs, I just don't see it happening very quickly, if at all.

August Brice: Right. That's good news. Very good news. And you know, Robin, you were talking about the shielding, and the detection before and after. So just want to get this straight. Before you use shielding, detect, after you use shielding, detect. And the shielding that you're talking about is home shielding. You're not talking about wearing a cap or covering yourself with a blanket. Correct? 

Rob Metzinger: Correct. 

August Brice: Okay. And when I read an EMF conference last year that we both sponsored and that was great, great to meet you in person. But there were a couple of people there that wore EMF jumpsuits, full protection. Do you remember?

Rob Metzinger: I do.

August Brice: Okay. And when I spoke to them, about it, they said that, in addition to the jumpsuits which also covered their feet, they had little booties that covered their feet, they also wore visors that would reflect the EMF away from their face. And they said that they were so sensitive, that normally they also had their face covered. But for the conference, because there were so many steps that they took to eliminate EMF in the conference area, that they were able to wear just a visor. And so knowing that and knowing that these people really, really were incredibly sensitive, and were taking great care and came to a conference just to learn all about EMF and what they could do about it, what do you say to people who think they should just put a hat on and be protected from EMF?

Rob Metzinger: Right. We've like over the years, we've seen various reactions to wearing shielded clothing or metallic clothing. It's kind of a love hate relationship. I mean, some people do really well and they love it and other people, they react really poorly to it. So I myself, I'm still trying to understand the effects of [inaudible 00:34:39] coating on the body. And it's just something we have to learn about as we go on here. And I would say if you're going to try it, do it as an experiment and listen to what your body says. And if it reacts negatively, then that's probably not true. Or you want to try a different approach to it.

August Brice: Yeah, I've tried them all. And way back, as soon as everything came out, I started trying everything. And I realized that the heat that I felt, and it's not a heat that anyone else can feel. It's just a heat that I feel in my body, like a tingling, it always increased it. It just made that bizarre heat that I feel worse. And then I started to understand that it's reflecting. So maybe it's reflecting to the areas that aren't covered. And that's why I'm feeling that sensation. 

Rob Metzinger: Yeah. And then there's conductive fabric and non conductive fabric. And is there an insulating layer between you and these fabrics, you know that may help. When radio waves hit a metal, you they cause internal current flow inside the material similar to the frequencies that are hitting it. So because that then transferred onto your body, if you're in direct contact with it. There's so much we need to learn and understand about this, first of all, so yeah, I just use a little bit of caution if you're going to experiment with shielded clothing.

August Brice: And okay, and then the last thing about shielding [inaudible 00:36:07]. But what about the shielding that goes on the phone? I mean, you probably know how I feel about it. I'm not a fan of putting my phone in a pouch that's partially shielding. Have you tried the phone cases that are shielded on the top? Or have you tried a pouch? 

Rob Metzinger: Back when they first came out many years ago, we did some experimenting with them, but it's kind of like when you go in into an elevator, and you start losing the service of your phone and what happens is the phone will actually increase its transmission in order to try and get a signal. So that's kind of the same thing that's happening with your phone when it's in a pouch. It's probably going to increase its signal, it's going to probably wear out the battery or drain down the battery quicker. 

I'm not sure how effective it will really be for you, especially if you're still in direct contact with it, and it's on your hip in a pouch and all that RF is hitting that shield, and it's still kind of in contact with your body near demonstrations, I think you demonstrated it's not completely sealed either. So it's leaking out in certain areas, which can cause hotspot, I think the only true way of achieving protection is to eliminate the source and the source is the phone, so I would really say you have to try and get it off your body for sure and ultimately put it in airplane mode. And check messages when you need to or, use the phone when you need to as opposed to having it on all the time. 

August Brice: And the peace that comes with that is so awesome. One last question back to meters. Have you noticed since you've been working with meters and creating meters for what 15 years? You've been using a meter or 20?

Rob Metzinger: I've been using meters for about 20 years. Yes.

August Brice: Have you noticed just an increase in the ambient readings?

Rob Metzinger: Well, back in the days, if you're close to a tower, the ambient readings were pretty high still. But back then, you'd find a lot more sheltered spots. Now, the coverage, there's so many towers out there, that it's really tough to find these sheltered areas. So we're still getting significant readings, they definitely have went up too, but I find it's more of the sheltered sponsors, not that any of the software companies are doing a great job and getting coverage in many places, and the cell phone they're not dropping signals as we did in the old days either. And I used to drive down the road, and it'd be normal to drop a signal, but that just doesn't happen anymore. Now the coverage area is definitely more densely radiated with this RF radiation from [inaudible 00:38:50] towers. 

August Brice: And do you think it's all cell phone radiation an or WiFi? Or do you think it's the combination?

Rob Metzinger: I think it's mostly cellphone outside. WiFi doesn't tend to transmit far out of people's homes. You know, in fact, if you have your WiFi on, it may affect two or three homes down the street, and then that pretty well ends.

August Brice: Unless Rob, you're in a city like we are and there's mesh networks, and they serve to form sort of an umbrella and this 12 block area that I'm in. Have you seen stuff like that?

Rob Metzinger: Okay, no, not in my area. But it can exist out there for sure.

August Brice: And you know what I love? Okay, I have to tell everybody, your sound signatures are the coolest, because I can tell that it's WiFi versus cell phone, and how did you come to create these? So Rob's meters when you're measuring RF energy and that can be from any wireless device, he's put this sound on to that particular wave. How did you do that? How did you think of doing it?

Rob Metzinger: I can't take credit for that. That was developed before my time. And I just thought it was a great feature to have. And it has to do with the modulation or the data that basically being sent by these phones and it's the frequency of the data pattern that's coming off the phones and it's not the carrier wave. The carrier wave for a deck 6.0 telephone would be 1.8, 1.9 gigahertz. It's the modulation on that, it's the actual data that's coming through. And that's what we're just basically sending through our speaker and because it's low frequency, it's high gigahertz range and we can play it on a speaker and you can hear it because it's low frequency and that's the biological part for our body's as well, because our body is operate in that little frequencies, starting below one hertz and going up to a few 100 hertz so I'm told. 

And a lot of that, this modulated signals coming from post digital devices can be in that range. That's one of the reasons we suspect the biological effects occurring, but each device has its own modulation or data transmission pattern and that's what these sounds you're hearing. That's what these sounds that you're hearing. And it can help you easily identify the source, because just looking at a screen and a number really doesn't tell you much about what's causing it, but these audio patterns can really help you identify sources and just by using the meters for a short period of time you'll quickly be able to identify what a wireless router sounds like, what a cordless phone sounds like, what a cell phone tower sounds like. Those are the three main offenders that we see over and over again.

August Brice: Right. It's awesome and I love what you do with that description just now, when you talked about modulation and biological effect. Another myth, or not a myth, argument that I hear is well, they're everywhere, the same energy is occurring naturally in the environment, so tell me just a little bit from an engineer's perspective, the difference between that wave that might be occurring naturally versus the one that's happened because it's unnatural man made?

Rob Metzinger: All right. These are called technical waves or technical fields and they're generated by man. They exist in nature for AC alternating [inaudible 00:42:39] waves is at a super low level. Hundreds of thousands, millions of time less than want to be exposed to and what we've evolved with, becoming human beings in the 20th century or 21st century.

August Brice: Imagine the modulation. And to me when you put that information on the signal because nature didn't put the data on the signal.

Rob Metzinger: That's a really good way of putting it. August you're right. Yeah, that sums it up quite nicely.

August Brice: And so can my meter, my safe living technology meter, can it also detect the waves that are made by nature?

Rob Metzinger: They are at such a low level that I don't think you'd be able to measure that August.

August Brice: Okay. Just curious. Wanted to know from the man who made it. And so, I know I keep saying it's the last question. This of course is the last question. First of all what's an electronics engineering technologists and how did you get into the field?

Rob Metzinger: Oh sure. Back in high school, just anything to say because I didn't want to get into the tech area and it was either machine shop or electronics so I chose the electronics path in the computer system area to go through. Computers were big in the late 80s and the first pc came on at that time so I thought it'd be a good field to get into and it was. It was a great field, I was in the computer service technology for 17, 18 years and that was a great place to be. I enjoyed my job and electronic engineering technologist basically is an [inaudible 00:44:33] engineer, the engineers, basically what I did was, I would test with engineers design and built and work with the [inaudible 00:44:40] to test these engineering designs and make sure they performed as they should perform. So that's what an electronic engineering technologist does. 

And then I was just able to apply that skills set to the electronic radiation field as well when I decided to switch over to this business. For me it was a gradual switch that took a while to understand how this will develop into a business and there's definitely opportunities there for technical people. And it also has a technical field and it's difficult to understand the concepts that are [inaudible 00:45:27] and I don't have any technical background. Has a good chance of doing quite well understanding all through [inaudible 00:45:35]

August Brice: Before we go, what's the one thing that we haven't talked about that you think everybody should know right now?

Rob Metzinger: Every level of reduction you can achieve in electro magnetic field exposure is worth taking. If you can just get it down a little bit, get it down a little bit, but it's all worth it. The less exposure we have to this, the higher quality of life would be experienced long term.

August Brice: Great. That's so good. And if people want to find you, if they want to get a hold of you, where can they find you and do you offer your services as a consultant or are we mainly just talking about the business now?

Rob Metzinger: Well, yeah I'm at Safe Living Technology inc. And we do offer consultation services, we have a large service provider list throughout the country as well. A well certified trained building biologist that can go on a home inspections for people and also the telephone consultation services. And that would be on our website under company and then local service providers.

August Brice: I love building biologists. I do have a listing and also if you really want to learn from Rob, Rob you're a teacher at the institute are you not?

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Right now we just finished our [inaudible 00:46:59]12 advanced electronic radiation training online on Sunday. We're getting ready to do another course shortly in the next week or so and yeah building biology is a great way to get exposed to all the theory and the practicality they're actually doing some measurements to assess and determine field [inaudible 00:47:21] strengths for these fields and how to mitigate them.

August Brice: Absolutely. There's no trending like that, that the building biologist honestly. If you really are having issues in your home at any type of EMF, electromagnetic RF any type, definitely a building biologist is the person to call. And to think that you're an instructor I just have such great respect for you. Thank you so much Rob for doing this today.

Rob Metzinger: You're welcome August. It's my pleasure.

August Brice: And here are my five top take aways from my great interview with Rob Metzinger. EMF awareness is increasing daily, this is[inaudible 00:47:54] the only way to make sure you know how much wireless EMF is in your home, is to use a radio frequency meter. Make sure your meter is certified to be accurate. Number two, the best EMF protection is distancing yourself from the source reality, say distance is your friend. So put as much space as you can between you and your phone, your computer, the wireless speakers in your home et cetera or turn them off or on airplane.

Number three, shielding or blocking EMF is really a tricky proposition, so whether you're attempting to use a [inaudible 00:48:29] roof to block a cell phone tower in the neighborhood or metallic material on your walls or around your phone or laptop or on your body, it's important to use a meter before you shield and after to measure and verify the effectiveness. And four, as an engineer and EMF instructor, Rob helped us understand how metal material or shielding can reflect those electro magnetic fields, those invisible wireless energy signals away, but that means it can reflect it back to you so you have to be careful. We know he also told us that some people feel better with shielding clothing and some people don't. 

Number five, finally, even very low levels of EMF can affect you. Rob creates meters according to the building biology guidelines for the amount of EMF that can cause biological effects. Find a meter that has accuracy down to low levels of wireless radiation. And speaking of those we have in the notes a great discount to our two Safe Living Technology's meters on and they ship free.

Next podcast I've got another great guest. So the trick is to subscribe so you won't miss it. And it really helps to get the word out. If you can please give us a nice rating on Apple or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening to thriving with technology from

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